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sy

Tom, please do play with Herdict Web (one of the ideas of Prof. Zittrain's that you mention), which we officially launched last Wednesday at http://www.herdict.org. Participation and feedback welcome!

RAD

You are a rebel Tom! Book review without a link to the book. I suspect the mole people are not to pleased.

Are you going to continue to shun book links or are you still weighing your book link options?

tomslee

No principle involved - just forgot the link. I'll fix it. Got to keep those mole people happy.

Kevin Arthur

Thanks for reviewing this. I had dismissed Zittrain as being in the hacker-purist camp, based on an interview I heard, but it sounds like that was premature.

Russell

I think you mention a crucial issue which is that this is a shared environment that we all have an interest in but do not independently own, and is thus subject to "The tragedy of the commons". I would suggest an open source approach to security architecture can benefit the widest range of participants, particularly as we move towards complex webs of services. Take a look at www.opensecurityarchitecture.org for more info if you are interested.

Russ.

Seth Finkelstein

This is the best review of Zittrain's book I've seen.

Sadly, I deeply believe that Zittrain's treatment and lessons drawn from Wikipedia are incorrect, and the analysis he does is thus seriously flawed. Wikipedia has received an enormous _de facto_ advertising and marketing subsidy from Google's algorithm (_de facto_ meaning in effect, not that there's any sort of explicit deal). And that's very much not applicable to anything else, definitely not from any sort of community best practices.

Stephane Gauvin

You link to amazon and to the open library entry. The fulltext (plus readers' comments and Zittrain's additional material) is available here: http://yupnet.org/zittrain/. A shorter version (an article in HLR) can be downloaded here: http://www.harvardlawreview.org/issues/119/may06/zittrain.pdf

tomslee

Thanks for the comments and links.

Seth. I'm not sure what you are arguing. I realize Wikipedia has got a huge boost from Google search placements (for reasons that still puzzle me), and that other initiatives are not likely to get the same. But I can still see the internal process of Wikipedia as being of value. I know you have issues with the cult, but I do think that the commitment to keep it non-profit and open (forced on it several years ago) has made the operation work well in the aggregate despite, sometimes, the intentions of the inner circle.

Stephane: the software for the text is interesting - better than Benkler's wiki, for example. Cheers.

Seth Finkelstein

Tom, the issue is the meaning "of value". The _impression_ people are likely to get from his discussion, is that if you follow Wikipedia's processes, your project will be as fantastically successful as Wikipedia - he explicitly participates in the mystification here, where he quotes "But Wikipedia is the canonical bee that flies despite scientists' skepticism that the aerodynamics add up.". Now, I know that's putting it starkly, and I could be accused of making a straw-man. But I do think there's deep flaws in how he "sees an inspiration in Wikipedia". There's some relatively small value in Wikipedia's processes, but they are standard stuff, not a scientific mystery. But the secret ingredient was not those processes, but rather Google's. Thus, you really can't learn much new from Wikipedia, in terms of solving big community problems, except that having an enormously powerful sugar-daddy is great.

One of the less obvious things I'm trying to do with analyzing Wikipedia as a cult is to undercut the idea that its processes represent any sort of overall solution to policy problems. As in, yes, it's sociologically interesting in how to have a big distributed online cult, and many papers can be written on it, but having cults to do work for free not a very good political program (i.e., this is in the same vein as the idea of not having a strong public sector, rather people should just volunteer and be charitable).

tomslee

I do agree that Wikipedia's success is unique, and that the repeated citing of Wikipedia as a paradigm for successful large-group production efforts is overdone, to say the least. I am not sure that I agree with you about Wikipedia being "having cults do work for free" because it is non-commercial. I worry that if you go down the road you are following, then there seems to be no difference between, say, OpenStreetMap (a real community effort) and Google's MapMaker (a commercial effort that is what I think of as digital sharecropping). To me there is a significant difference.

Of course, the volunteer vs public sector issue will always be with us, and using "community effort" as a substitute for real social programs (for example) is going down an unhealthy path.

But I'll be interested to see what you come up with and look forward to continuing the conversation.

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