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Sunny Kalsi

I liked the statement: "Your answer to “what data should the government make public?” depends not so much on what you think about data, but what you think about the government." I completely agree with you that a lot of these are old arguments wrapped with new words.

I think, to some extent, politicians are like parrots. They learn how other people talk and then mimic that. So when open government guys are talking about real change(tm), the politicians learn that "the people" are listening, so they start talking about how "open data will cause real change, SQWAARK". However, like parrots, I don't believe they've understood the true meaning behind it. Their world-view is still that of the old-skool politician, the same old ideas are simply flattened and translated into the new rhetoric.

I was also disappointed with Amazon's behaviour, who ought to be new-skool, but really didn't have the balls to stand up to the old. Hopefully ISPs and other "nice guys with servers" will mirror wikileaks in a more effective way.

However, I also believe that open data has the ability to change politics fundamentally. The reason is based on what Wikileaks does show about the polity: It's all about perception management. Given, the leaks are between officials of different countries, but surely the same standards apply to the people -- we get fed niceties and the realities are buried. A government has no incentive to highlight statistics on hand if they disagree with the conclusions. Sometimes the opposition will ask for the data but other times, say the war in Afghanistan, there is bi-partisan support, and neither side wants data like "there are a bunch of soldiers and civilians dying" to surface.

In short, I guess I'm saying: Wikileaks is basically what open data looks like, and despite what open data proponents are talking about, the attitude of the government, the stated intentions behind Wikileaks, and the fact that the data in this particular leak hasn't had much that will cause change, it does serve the purpose of showing how both the "open" and "data" portions ought to be working with respect to how the government does it's thing.

Shane Taylor

[David Rieff said something similar:]

If you believe the United States is fundamentally a force for good in the world (one does not have to traffic in Brooks’s cheap millenarian language to believe this), then you should be appalled by the emergence of Wikileaks, for it does indeed make the job of American diplomats more difficult. If, on the other hand, you believe that America is an empire (one does not have to believe that this makes the United States a malign force, just not a benign one, any more than any other empire has ever been), and, if you are an American, anyway, you believe that this imperial vocation is destroying the country, and therefore you want to see the empire’s end, then of course you will enthusiastically welcome the advent of Wikileaks.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/foreign-policy/79626/the-wikileaks-strike-the-heart-american-exceptionalism

radthoughts.com

I dunno, sounds like a small group of insiders, maybe even one person, was empowered by a relatively open system to release a massive amount of classified information that has left world leaders and diplomats in a tizzy. Seems pretty revolutionary to me, its just not revolutionary in the way people expected. Regardless of the motivation behind the leak (the real leaker(s) not Wikileaks) or the play-by-play commentary of various pundits, Diplomacy 1.0 is history.

sophist75

With all due respect I don't think you understand Assange's philosophy. It is not about making government unworkable, it is about exposing conspiracies - thus making conspiracies unworkable. This is unequivocally a good thing.

Here is what Assange said in his interview with Forbes:

"Let’s say you want to run a good company. It’s nice to have an ethical workplace. Your employees are much less likely to screw you over if they’re not screwing other people over.

"Then one company starts cutting their milk powder with melamine, and becomes more profitable. You can follow suit, or slowly go bankrupt and the one that’s cutting its milk powder will take you over. That’s the worst of all possible outcomes.

"The other possibility is that the first one to cut its milk powder is exposed. Then you don’t have to cut your milk powder. There’s a threat of regulation that produces self-regulation."

Let me expand on this point. The actors in the marketplace and politics function strategically, according to systemic imperatives. These systems are necessary to manage the complexity of a modern (to some extent global) society, which cannot just rely on cooperation between individuals. But when these systems become distorted, they lead to all the actors in the system behaving according to systemic imperatives which have a negative effect on their social (and sometimes physical) environments. The bonds of solidarity and trust within which these systems are embedded are gradually eroded through the pathological behavior of these agents - leading to a breakdown of solidarity and the potential for consensus. Conspiracies in the marketplace or in politics *always* distort the system in which they operate. There are no healthy or useful conspiracies. The consequences of the resulting distortions are all around us today, and they're getting worse. Those of us not part of the corrupted systems have to act now, before it becomes too late to do anything about them.

seth edenbaum

"while WikiLeaks is making more data available to more people it has no interest in making the US government work better."
Is it the job of a defense attorney to represent the government or his client?

The client of the press is the public not the state.

tomslee

The Rieff article is similar indeed. Thanks for the pointer.

tomslee

The odd thing here is that the open system was the internal network of the US government, and it wasn't intended to be open at all. I haven't followed the Bradley Manning story (if it was indeed him) so I don't know quite what happened there.

tomslee

No argument with that - I wasn't knocking WikiLeaks, just observing.

seth edenbaum

Then WikiLeaks is not the government and is doing its job as a public advocate: the definition of the press.
The web is nothing but a billion printing presses and a distribution network controlled by the powers that be.
The "back woods" are still on official corporate turf. If WL had it's own fiber optic system as Hezbollah does there'd be something to talk about. Governments have never been open and they won't be.

WikiLeaks is not the issue, any more than Daniel Ellsberg was the issue for the Pentagon papers. The central issue, and the one everyone outside the US is talking about, is war.

radthoughts.com

I don't think that is the "odd thing" I think that is the main story and a pretty amazing one at that.

Jay

"The openness question is always contingent, and to phrase political questions in terms of data is sidestepping the big issue. Your answer to “what data should the government make public?” depends not so much on what you think about data, but what you think about the government. Everyone is in favour of other people’s openness."

I think this is exactly correct. In the case of people like you (and me) who are against the US's imperialist practices, we'll support the leaks. And also how so many people in the US use the straw-man of "closed China" or "closed Arab states"...but flip their position when, as someone put it almost a decade ago, the chickens come home to roost.

Do you think though, that's it's possible to hold a viable/tenable position always in favor of openness? That perhaps secrecy is always a tool of power and that openness always mitigates power's influence? Just thinking out loud.

Dipper

so ... you're a diplomat and you want to send some background to your government ... previously you would have said what you thought in a "confidential" e-mail. Now you use a coded form of communication that you know your target audience will understand but will not embarrass anyone if published. Dictators will now "face challenges" and "believed to be considering their succession" whereas previously they would have been wildly unpopular and about to be removed by an internal coup. So wiki-leakes has been a one-off that cannot be repeated, and has not told us anything we didn't know.

ps listen to Tim Marshall's podcast on sky. Interesting view ...

tomslee

Good points.

With equal respect, I don't think our interpretations are as far apart as they seem. I read Assange's article as saying that the US government is inherently an authoritarian conspiracy, and that he wants to make this particular form of government unworkable. You read him as saying that the US government would be a better government if it stopped being conspiratorial. An open, non-conspiratorial government would be a different thing to the current structure.

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