« The Closing of Generation X | Main | "Cuts" - by Manipulatrix, video by Diva Schematic »

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d83451d3b369e20148c7eee8b3970c

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Late-Night Thoughts Against Reductionism:

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Sunny Kalsi

So, would you agree with the statement: "If we can't predict tomorrow's weather, how can we predict climate change?"

Perhaps I simply don't understand what you're trying to say, and I'm sure I'm a little lost on your opinion on the evolutionary worldview (My guess: equally bad). However, the idea that a small complex system we can't understand combines to form a large complex system we can't understand... well.. isn't that a little reductionist too?

Steve Bannister

On physics, the most promising theories of everything turn out to be emphatically deterministic and physical (and in only four dimensions). They are very much still on the fringe of a Kuhnian transition because of the enormous funding overhead they push against. A strong assertion on my part as I am not a physicist, but I have gone through the math and it seems compelling and extraordinarily exciting.

On complex non deterministic systems (humans, e.g.) arising from the primordial soup, I think the very best ideas I am familiar with are from Doug Hofstadter of "Gödel, Escher and Bach" fame in a recent book "I Am A Strange Loop." His discussion of a concept called shared symbol networks seems to explain much about social systems to me.

Looks like Doug has a new book due March this year..."The Essence of Thought." I expect it to be worth a read.

Rp

As a committed humanist, I'm pleased to read this post - especially the suggestion of language as fundamental to social being. I generally point to Gadamer's Truth and Method for a somewhat round-about but nonetheless deeply compelling account of the social essence of language as the basis for individual being. But for a much more accessible and immediately enjoyable ride, check out this Radiolab episode on words, which includes (among other provocative forays into language) an account of a man who did not know that things have names until he was 27 years old - and can now not express what life was like previously:

http://www.radiolab.org/2010/aug/09/

Jakob

I find it amusing that Shalizi resorts to petty rhetoric devices rather than sound argument in saying:
"Obviously, macroeconomic phenomena are the aggregated (or, if you like, the emergent) consequences of microeconomic interactions."

First, there is nothing obvious about anything unless you arrogantly assume that people share your epistemic paradigm. Second, are those macroeconomic phenomena merely aggregated or are they emergent? You can't have it both ways and if they are indeed emergent, then looking at the parts alone won't suffice to understand the whole, because according to strong emergence the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

So while I like that you are turning against reductionism, I do find your argument concerning language less than convincing. Wittgenstein had no clue about more recent advances in cognitive science that render the whole "the limits of my language are the limits of my world" argument quite pointless.

tomslee

The RadioLab episode is fascinating - I had not heard of that story before. And I will look up the book you mention. Thanks.

tomslee

I don't think Cosma S. is being arrogant - see the disclaimers at the beginning of his post - but really, his post is just an excuse to trot out some things I have had lying around for a while. I'd be interested in pointers to these "recent advances in cognitive science".

marcel

Shalizi may be partial to reductionism, but much less so than has been dominant among macroeconomics since, say, 1980. The Lucas critique/New Classical Macro really put that approach into high gear, and, as Shalizi put it, "pull[ed] down the theory." His points 1 & 2 may have given away more than you are willing to concede, but I think that's because he was more interested in points 3 through 7. So I think you are misreading him in calling him partial to reductionism, and your response to Jakob (currently the most recent comment) suggests that he is more straw man for you than anything else.

Seth Finkelstein

Urgh ... trying to take this all in, I think you're struggling with the idea that in politics, certain frameworks (individualism) are very bad ways of thinking about society, and putting that into quasi-scientific words, then concluding that since the politics is bad, science must be bad too. Because if the science is good, then the politics must be good, which is bad.

I hope the problems here are clear. Because that way lies madness, or at least post-modernism.

There's an echo here of evolution vs. Social Darwinism (natural selection vs the rich are more fit than the poor), and hence one of the nominally religious objections to evolution being that it encourages Social Darwin.

Also, you seem somewhere to have assumed that "reductionism" denies feedback and interaction, which is an understandable mistake. There can be systems where e.g. atoms change depend on interactions with other atoms - that's the atomic bomb.

kevin quinn

Tom: I think that there is an argument against reductionism grounded in game theory. The rule, not the exception, in game theory is multiple equilibria. So given tastes and technology don't determine the outcome. If you then think of social factors as equilibrium selection devices - things like norms, eg - then it seems to me reductionism doesn't go through. Schelling says somewhere that solving a coordination game involves jointly creating a tradition: we need the We before we can determine what all the I's will do!

tomslee

Kevin - I had not thought about multiple equilibria in game theory that way. There is an essay by Roger Myerson along the lines you describe, about Schelling's focal point: I wonder if that's what you are thinking of? It's here: http://home.uchicago.edu/~rmyerson/research/justice.pdf.

Seth - I'm trying to avoid the individualist politics/individualist science slippery slope. Yes, I have a bit more appreciation for some sociologists than before, but I think this is a purely scientific issue.

Let me try to clarify some things.
- A naive reductionism would say that we explain things in terms of their constituents, and solid state physics falls into that realm.
- It's still reductionist to explain open systems in terms of their internal workings + their interaction with their environment (Seth and Sunny, I think). Usually this can be done through some idea of a flux through the boundary between the system and the environment.
- Speech, written communication, bodies of knowledge, and technology make the boundary between humans and their environment very difficult to define, to the point where it is not clear that there is something that is a human without its environment. Not only are we influenced by our surroundings, but via culture we are influenced by most of the known universe. This is not novel, of course. But it does make explanations of human behaviour (and the behaviour of our muscles, neurons, cells) non-reductionist. I don't know if it matters to anyone else, but it does seem to matter to me.

tomslee

Yes, he is more straw man than anything, but I'm sure he'll survive that. And he does write this on reductionism: http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/notebooks/reductionism.html

marcel

Ya gotta be careful about putting periods right next to URLs, w/o any intervening spaces. It makes them hard to click on, w/o getting an error message (url not found, because the period is interpreted as part of the link).

Dipper

ummm ... how about statistical mechanics? We can make predictions about the behaviour of the population and its response to forces, but within the population itself individual particles may be doing all sorts of things.

And how come the countries with the best most advanced economies are those where the government has intervened to create a protected secure environment for industry with lots of state-sponsored activity? each company under the national umbrella is different and has its own niche, but together they form a distinctive collective.

And of course as always the truth is in the birds. Take ducks. They fly, the males are brightly coloured and the females are dull (mostly, but not shelducks). Except on islands with no ground predators when they don't fly and the males are dull. So if a new species of duck is discovered where there are ground predators, I will confidently predict that the female will be brown, and the male brightly coloured, but I will have no idea what the male will look like.

tjfxh

Being a philosopher, all I can say, is: Of course. Isn't it obvious? :)

One reason why macro is essentially different from micro is this: Micro can be modeled in terms of markets populated by individuals, and it is possible to conceive of a very simple model with a single "representative agent." I don't think that any economist actually thinks that this model is anything but a simple heuristic, and it allows us to think about the principles of markets in a simple way, boiling it down, so to speak.

However, macro does not deal with individuals and markets in the same way. The basic macro equation is Y=C+I+G+(X-M), that is, the sectoral relation linking households, firms, government, and the ROW. The operatve word here is "relation." A society is not an aggregate of individuals but a system of elements (individuals), subgroups (families), groups (institutions), which form subsystems embedded in a larger system (nation).

"It's the relationships, stupid."

According to the sectoral balance approach, the sectoral balances sum to zero. Therefore, the government sector, the private domestic sector, and the external sector cannot all be in surplus or deficit simultaneously. That is to say, all sectors cannot act in tandem. Their relationship does not support it.

Those who try to reduce macro to micro often find themselves involved in fallacies of composition, like the paradox of thrift, where pursuit of individual self-interest in economic (market-based) situations in a way that is beneficial for the individual turns out to be deleterious for the economy considered from the vantage of the society as a whole. What may be effective and efficient for individuals as such may not be so for the larger group, owing to relationships linking individuals.

In addition, modeling social sciences on the physical or life sciences is a fool's errand because of uncertainty. Human consciousness is not capable of standing outside of itself other than in very simple thought experiments (conceptual models). Modeling individuals as analogous to atoms or cells simply does not work in complex models owing to uncertainty. Humans are unpredictable as individuals, and the conditions they are presented with are uncertain. Reductionists can dream that they will be proved correct in the future, but it's not in the cards at present. We can't even write the equations, much less solve them.

Dipper

and whilst I'm on about birds, songbirds such as finches when raised in captivity have weak poorly developed songs. In the wild they learn their songs from other birds. So birdsong is really a property of a population, not just an individual bird.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Circular References

  • Could Try Harder
    This here is a relaxed, slow-moving weblog. It ain't one o' them hyperactive updated-all-the-time weblogs. Slow down a little.

Books

Blog powered by TypePad
Member since 11/2005

Tools

  • Sitemeter