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Ryan Shaw

This is worth reading, one of the few pieces that starts to get beyond the tired "was it Twitter/Facebook or wasn't it?" question: http://zunguzungu.wordpress.com/2011/02/14/knowing-and-unknowing-the-egyptian-public/

RAD

At this point in time I feel like I'm looking out from underneath a single lamp post and seeing the warm glow of thousands of lamp posts in the distance. Each has a story that is but one small piece of this unfolding narrative. My only fear is that I will one day run out of lamp posts to visit not that each lamp post shines brightly only on a smallish circle of truth.

The WSJ lamp post was a good one that I have not yet visited, thanks :)

tomslee

Interesting, and better than the Jay Rosen article he starts with, but both have a pot/kettle quality. "Your side always oversimplifies my side's nuanced and sophisticated discourse" is a bit of a crock. In my opinion.

tomslee

The world is a messy place, no doubt about it.

Dipper

hmm ... this is straightforward isn't it?

If we construct a revolution, then there are several key requirements; widespread discontent, a spark, an uprising, and collapse of the regime. One of these stages, the uprising, requires a degree of co-ordination. This is similar to quorum sensing in bacteria; the participants have to sense there are sufficient of them that if they act together they can achieve their objectives. In the Egyptian revolution the role of social network technology seems to have been critical in this according to some of the participants, so it seems churlish to dispute this. In other revolutions other means of quorum sensing may have been used, but in this one it was Facebook and Twitter.

if all it took to create a revolution was a few discontents on twitter then Bahrain and Iran would join this list. But they may not, and this leads to the final point that Twitter by itself will achieve nothing. In Tunisia and Egypt the critical moves have been made by the army. Technically these have been coups not revolutions. Without the support of the army these regime changes would not have happened. Time may lead us to take a very different view of these uprisings.

tomslee

It may seem churlish to dispute it, but maybe we should at least check that the impression we are getting (that social networks are critical) is a realistic one. The participants we hear from are, after all, the ones who are most savvy about using social media.

Dipper

the twitter theory goes like this:
- communication between many potential revolutionaries is a critical stage of a revolution.
- in this instance social networking was used to communicate.

Which bit do you find fault with? That widespread communication is necessary? Or that it is but it wasn't Twitter? In which case was it TV? word of mouth?

tomslee

The second. At least, it wasn't just social networking. The spread from country to country was partly because of Al Jazeera. Students network because they are in universities in the second most crowded city on the planet. Urbanization is a huge driver for communication: it is driving the strike wave in China as thousands of migrant workers get together. Groups not using the Internet (eg trade unions - there have been thousands of strikes in the last few years) have also been key to the dissent.

Dipper

I guess historically the two sets of people with ready-made networks for rapid distribution of ideas and instructions to a willing population are religious groups and trade unions. Hard left organisations have often viewed other less extreme groups with disdain due to their lack of organisation and discipline, but social networking offers a change from that.

Clay Shirky

Tom, I'm curious about your approving nod to the "People, not Things..." article, which seemed to me to be little more than a tautology. That people drive revolutions is not merely true but axiomatic; to say 'politics is about people' is simply to traffic in synonyms as descriptions, as that post does.

More importantly, to say that revolutions are about people provides zero descriptive value -- to learn that the failed April 6, 2008 uprising in Egypt and the successful one of this year were both "people-driven" tells us nothing at all about their respective characters.

RAD's thousands of lamposts seems to me to get at the core issue -- if you are interested in the ways communications tools factor into group coordination, then I think you have to accept that the kernel of truth you've identified will, under that lamp-post, be a more effective way of discussing successful and failed strategies of coordination than the "People, Not Things" argument.

tomslee

The parts of the TechCrunch article that resonated with me were those arguing that the communications issue was secondary. At least, following Gladwell:

“People with a grievance will always find ways to communicate with each other. How they choose to do it is less interesting, in the end, than why they were driven to do it in the first place.”

and

"While it’s plain that these things [social media tools] were part of the process, I think the mindset of the online world creates a risk of overstating their importance, and elevating something useful, even powerful, to the status of essential. The people of Egypt made use of what means they had available, just as every oppressed people has in history.

I do realize I'm lucky to live in a part of the world where we have few bounds on our ability to communicate, so TechCrunch and I may both be naive about communications not being a bottleneck. And the same may not be true in Libya, for example. But I do think the focus on communications tools may be exaggerated and that other important stories (see Juan Cole here on the importance of labour activism, for example) may be being neglected because they are not as appealing to North American audiences.

RAD

Dipper, your "quorum sensing bacteria" comment has been on my mind since I first read it so I'm glad this comment thread is still going. I'm not sure if it is true so I'll start with an assumption that quorum sensing bacteria send out a single signal that elicits a single type of response once the consensus threshold is met.

The problem of attributing causality becomes more complicated when the same type of signal can be communicated via different communication mechanisms (redundancy) and also when a single communication mechanism can send different kind of signals (plasticity). There is no doubt in my mind that Twitter was used for coordination and that coordination can be a critical aspect of social movements. What I'm not yet convinced of is that Twitter and coordination were crucial elements in the Egyptian revolution.

Here is an alternative story. Steven Pinker talks about Mutual Knowledge being a key factor in revolutions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-son3EJTrU&t=7m0s

Perhaps a mutual knowledge signal (a form of quorum sensing?) was the tipping point. Mutual knowledge could have spread via Twitter, Facebook, Al-Jazeera, cell phones, flyers, work lunch rooms, places of worship, sounds on the street, or all of the above. The technology might still be key in this alternative story but the key factor becomes mutual knowledge of general unrest vs. coordination of dissenters.

Maybe the important signals were within or between the military and/or the police. In Egypt, there was some kind of transition that appeared in the news images in which the black uniforms and black vehicles of the police disappeared and were replaced by the tan uniforms/tanks of the military. Was this a coup then as you say? Did Twitter coordinating dissenters influence the military decision process?

It is certainly a fascinating story and hopefully we will learn more about how things actually unfolded.

Brad Fallon

It was so overwhelming on how social media was able to emphasize its users the idea of being united in one cause through the use of internet. Facebook certainly had played a very important role with it.

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