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RAD

In the case of the Mona Lisa It is not that the common "causal explanations" that account for the fame of the painting are "just stories". In my opinion, STORIES are the causal explanation. The attributes of the Mona Lisa that account for the success are real and measurable, they just have nothing to do with the aesthetic attributes. The stories surrounding the painting involving the artist, the subject, and the history of the artwork itself are the important attributes. You could survey people who took a tour of the Louvre and determine what stories they remember most, what paintings resulted in conversations afterwards, how many social reminders (think Cadbury commercial) do people encounter.

It's not a matter of luck, it's a matter of picking the critical variables when dealing with a non-linear system. Checking your assumptions, constantly measuring, and all the tricks to remain agile (i.e. Adapt) are really ways of ensuring that the linear model devised to solve the non-linear system still holds true.

The tensile strength of steel is linear until temperatures get low enough that brittleness becomes the critical factor (as early steel ship builders learned the hard way). The first aluminum motorcycle frames were designed for tensile strength but failed due to fatigue (vibrations) so had to be redesigned with fatigue as the critical calculation. Engineering doesn't demand an equation to work in every situation, it only demands to know the conditions under which it will work.

I think you can reframe any popular heuristic like unintended consequences and unknown unknowns into a framework of solving non-linear systems. One of the key aspects of reductionist science is holding most variables constant so that the experiment can be reproduced. Test tubes and vacuums are tricks to turn non-linear systems into linear ones.

tomslee

Watts spends some time on the Mona Lisa. Turns out it only became the world's most famous painting in the 20th century. In 1911 it was stolen from the Louvre by an Italian who wanted to repatriate it, and the French and Italians were both captivated by the theft. So the story catapulted it to fame, but not many of us know the story now (I certainly didn't) but we all know the painting. Yes it's a story, but it's a 20th century story, and his main point is that it's a fluke of history. I think that fits with what you say too.

RAD

I don't think the Mona Lisa is a fluke of history. I certainly don't think Leonardo da Vinci is a fluke of history. The smile is the story that most of us think about. But it doesn't have to get that complicated, it really comes down to a Sesame Street "One of these things is not like the other" game. Take a bunch of da Vinci paintings and the Mona Lisa stands out as different. Take the most well known portraits of women in any format and I think the Mona Lisa will stand out as completely different and leave you scratching your head wondering "whats up with that?".

The 1911 theft is certainly a fluke of history but I'm not sure it was a prerequisite for the smile meme taking off in the age of mass media. The Mona Lisa is an enigmatic painting by an extremely well known and productive artist whose other paintings are anything but enigmatic. This quality captures the imagination.

tomslee

... but apparently this distinctive, enigmatic quality did not make Mona Lisa stand out from other Da Vinci paintings until the 20th century.

RAD

True enough, the Mona Lisa did not stand out until the 20th century... the number of reproductions did not take off until the 20th century either. I'm guessing photographic/printing technology had something to do with the "stand out" number of reproductions. 20th century mass media and popular culture are no different. I don't think it is fair to compare a 20th century metric of success prior to the 20th century.

What was the metric used prior to the 1911 theft? Price, literary references?

Jakob

I like the way you approach this subject, so I'll just jump in:

While you cannot uphold a deterministic view where all your actions have foreseeable consequences when facing complexity I think that it is still very much viable to attempt the approximation of predictability. Even if a model is reduced to a probabilistic heuristic it is still better than no model (or random guessing) if it gives you better predictive power than chance. More importantly it gives you explanatory power that would be lacking otherwise.

The critical problem though is that while we see models that succeed in producing "better than nothing" results we are failing to discard models that don't succeed. There is an epistemic reason to continue using the weather forecast. To continue using last centuries rational choice models that fail time and time again the reason is not that they are useful so much as that too many people have vested interests in preserving the institutionalized knowledge and the time and resources they poured into acquiring it. When stories are abused as an ex post rationalization they are detrimental to understanding the world. But that is not due to the properties of stories as such but rather to the inability of people to use them as helpful tools.

Stories by themselves are merely filters to manage the complexity of information, much like filtering algorithms, but it is their saliency in human communication that makes them a rather helpful tool for humans to understand issues (unlike mathematical algorithms). If they are used to describe the most relevant variables (much like RAD suggested) they are great to help people understand the world.

I recently wrote a blog entry that expands on this line of argument if you are interested:
http://blog.jochmann.me/post/7529461950/filter-bubble-complexity-psychology-internet-technodeter

(sorry for double posting, looks like the send action is messing with my feedreader)

tomslee

There is, behind all this, the question of what is predictable and what is not (and Watts does address this). But the limits of expertise, whether cast as stories or not, are pretty severe when it comes to prediction. It is one thing to "understand" an event, as in "see how it could have happened", but another thing to claim that the story tells us a cause-and-effect logic at work. I very much like Watts's take on the difference, but didn't explain it well here.

tomslee

I agree that you can't have a mass phenomenon without a mass media. The argument is that before its 1911 theft, "even when it was moved to the Louvre, after the French revolution, it did not attract as much attention as the works of other artists, like Esteban Murillo, Antonio do Corregio, Paolo Veronese, Jean-Baptiste Greuce, and Pierre Paul Prud'hon, names that for the most part are virtually unheard of today outside art history classes. And admired as he was, up until the 1850's da Vinci was consideed no match for the true greats of painting, like Titian and Rafael, some of whose works were worth almost ten times as much as the Mona Lisa. [p 56]

Jakob

Sure there are limits, but there are some frameworks that work better than monkeys throwing darts. The greater the scale of those predictions and the more clear the relevant starting variables, the better the predictive model. Black Swan events nonwithstanding some general trends can quite successfully be applied to predict future developments.

I think that the quality of solid models (or rather lack thereof) and research is the real culprit here. Prediction also is rarely done outside of the influence of policy makers and other particularist interests - which is why the pressure to develop more reliable models comes second to the pressure to develop models that support a certain agenda (even if just to preserve the reputation of institutionalized knowledge). Also for prediction to be useful it should fit in a timeframe in which action can be undertaken - again leading to less than optimal results, because the shorter the timeframe the less reliable the prediction. All in all I'd say that experts generally suck, because our society does not pose a favorable environment for better experts to appear, if you excuse the evolutionary analogy. Evolutionary theories by the way are yet another example of rather well deserved trust in their power - and yet you can hardly witness when the predictions turn out right given your life span.

Seth Finkelstein

RAD, part of the point is that there are many ways to be "not like the other". And the one which becomes world-famous often has as much to do with having a good press agent as anything else (note, this is not saying that good press is all that matters, but instead, from a pool of possible choices, the winner may simply be one of a set of peers who happens to garner the most publicity or an initial boost which then snowballs).

There's something of a logical paradox here, in that it's very easy to say "The winner won because its qualities are the absolute best - just looks at how fantastic it is, that's why it's the winner". The problem is that argument is tautological to the extent we're conditioned to see those qualities as best because we already know it's the winner.

RAD

Seth, I think you are inadvertently making part of my point. I claim that story attributes have as much, if not more, to do with the success of visual art than the artistic qualities do. The good press agent is all about the story.

The Mona Lisa is a story machine. Now if you and Tom want to claim that I only believe that the Mona Lisa is a story machine because it is well established as a story machine then at least we're talking about the same thing.

Iconic images like the Mona Lisa, the Che Guevara photo, Marilyn Monroe's blowing dress, and the Iwo Jima photo do have aesthetic qualities that set them apart. These qualities, however, have more to do with story enablement than composition/lighting/color qualities. In my opinion, our bias is in discounting the story attributes in comparison to the "artistic" attributes. I think the story qualities can be measured objectively by all kinds of different tests/surveys/experiments.

I hear what Watts/Slee/Finkelstein are trying to say to me. What I'm saying is that I don't buy it unless an analysis is done on the "storiness" which I think is the critical variable in the case of the Mona Lisa.

Seth Finkelstein

I don't think we're quite talking about the same thing. Maybe what you call "story machine" might be "cultural symbol". And the point being made is that potentially any of a range of cultural artifacts might serve the role - which specific one ends up doing so is more a product of luck and chance rather than it being somehow the best symbol("story machine"?). This is not provable in an absolute sense. But there's a lot of evidence that is suggestive, such as the experiments noted in the post above.

RAD

We are talking about the same thing, I'm just not articulating my point well. My general claim is that what we often attribute to randomness and chance is actually caused by a shift in the critical variables of a non-linear system. Non-linear systems are not perfectly predictable (non-deterministic) but if we pay careful attention to critical variables and the ranges/states in which they are valid then the misses add to our ability to predict moving forward.

The reason I'm harping about the Mona Lisa is that I don't think most evaluations of the success of works of (visual) art consider the story attributes of the artwork while I think they are often critical.

The claim I often hear that VHS won the video format war despite being an inferior technology is another example. This claim is based on the fact that Betamax supports higher resolution images yet lost in the market. My claim is that tape length and/or price was the critical variable. A proper analysis, in my opinion, carefully states why a variable is assumed to be critical and this assumption is constantly re-evaluated for correctness.

Unless an analysis takes a non-linear systems view I am skeptical of the conclusions. The evidence and experiments mentioned do not take this approach. I think a non-linear systems approach is one possible solution to Tom's quest to find predictability techniques that produce better than random outcomes.

Cahal

I appreciate this comment is slightly (completely) off topic, so feel free to delete it.

I'd just like to suggest, based on your apparent interests and general approach, a book called 'The Skeptical Economist' by Jonathan Aldred. It has a similar approach to this book, regarding 'incentives' and the general worldview that economists have, and is a fantastic read.

Seth Finkelstein

Just a note "Evolutionary theories by the way are yet another example of rather well deserved trust in their power - and yet you can hardly witness when the predictions turn out right given your life span."

Not at all. Drug-resistant bacteria are a spectacular human lifespan scale proof of evolution and an obvious prediction.

And arguably, the modern media system, properly understood (sensation and controversy over accuracy), is a pretty good metaphorical evolution proof of incentives producing pundit species to feed off them.

lon

Just a quick and somewhat orthogonal point:

the Mona Lisa was already being singled out as singularly brilliant masterpiece by Walter Pater in his 1869 essay on DaVinci:

"She is older than the rocks among which she sits; like the vampire, she has been dead many times, and learned the secrets of the grave; and has been a diver in deep seas, and keeps their fallen day about her; and trafficked for strange webs with Eastern merchants: and, as Leda, was the mother of Helen of Troy, and, as Saint Anne, the mother of Mary; and all this has been to her but as the sound of lyres and flutes, and lives only in the delicacy with which it has moulded the changing lineaments, and tinged the eyelids and the hands. The fancy of a perpetual life, sweeping together ten thousand experiences, is an old one; and modern philosophy has conceived the idea of humanity as wrought upon by, and summing up in itself all modes of thought and life. Certainly Lady Lisa might stand as the embodiment of the old fancy, the symbol of the modern idea."

So you are getting the history of the painting's celebrity wrong if you think it only achieved superstardom in the 20th century.

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